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Immortal Balance Changes

Immortal Balance Changes

Postby DKDev_Chris » Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:11 pm

Greetings Keepers,

I'd like to solicit feedback from the community regarding the current state of Immortals. The team is currently looking into a balance pass for all of them and what that might look like, but I'd like to send them some thoughts from you guys and gals. To be clear, nothing here is set in stone and there is no ETA on these (if at all), but if I can identify some common themes here it can only help their development.

For now, I'll leave this in an open format, so you can comment on any and all Immortals any way you see fit.
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Re: Immortal Balance Changes

Postby pisus » Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:20 pm

Tiny isn't an immortal at all anymore. Whelps at level 10 have now 5645 life points and 1135 attack points with a 1.6 sec rate. Tiny the "immortal" at level 35 remains at only 5880 LP and 784 AP with a 2 sec rate. How could it be even possible? And nerfing whelps is not a solution, Tiny is thought to fly directly at the aimed rooms, but right now it takes almost 2 minutes to destroy a level 25 room (hatchery, workshop or cemetery, cause library or torture cannot be attacked by Tiny due to its weakness against electric attacks), I don't wanna think about level 30 rooms. In the remaining 1 minute it's literally impossible to destroy anything else at all, without even considering attacking a level 30 dungeon heart. Speaking of which, trying a friend's dungeon in same guild, in 3 minutes it cannot be destroyed by Tiny alone.
On the other hand with all the bug zappers and anti-air traps that come with the new levels of the workshop, a disable trap spell which can disable only 4 traps at cast, it's unthinkable, and this counts for every minion or immortal. We have more and more levels of walls and the bomb wall improves every time, always more traps to fill our dungeons with, but the disable trap remains the same as the very beginning, when there was 4 traps at all.
Same thing about cluck off, minions level 30 but the spell remains just the same? It doesn't make sense. To kill a maxed out vampire it takes two spells, considering it has to be down very slowly cause otherwise it's ineffective, one whole minute is lost to cluck off one single minion.
In conclusion Tiny needs for sure more health and more attack points and a new level of the disable trap could be very useful for everyone from air to ground.
Last edited by pisus on Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Immortal Balance Changes

Postby DK2Hell » Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:29 pm

I think we need no stronger immortals because with the new lvl 30 buildings we get also more mana!

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Re: Immortal Balance Changes

Postby Kaapie » Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:10 am

At least level 40 immortals are needed across the board but with much greater health and damage bonuses between levels 35-40.

As for specific Immortals that need attention:

Swampus - Increase damage overall + make it do 7x damage to resources rooms. (Mortimer at max level does like +-3400 damage per hit unboosted, where as Swampus at max level would do 2016 per hit to resources rooms only. I think Swampus needs to do around the same if not more damage as Mortimer to resource rooms at least.

Tiny - Increase damage to either match or better that of max whelps and/or increase attack speed to 1.5 secs

Magmaw - Since the nerf of move speed to 350 on update #8, increase the health a bit.
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Re: Immortal Balance Changes

Postby Kongar » Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:59 pm

Sure there add new immortal levels... up to 50 sounds good, release 5 at a time. But how about making them more fun? It's a game after all. Bigger isn't always better... it's all about how you use what you have.

How about:
    Immortals giving a buff to minions. More health, damage, speed or special. Different for each one.

    Immortal/minion combinations that give bonuses or special abilities.

    Torture knocked out immortal for gem cost. Results in longer knock out, immortal can't be rescued with a raid.

HORNY:
    Immortal/minion combinations like vampire teaming with horny let's both pass through walls.

    Rally the minions to him within a 3 block area. Scare defensive minions to change sides. Rally buffs minions with half Horny rage buff.

    Horny to actively track and attack Sir Cophagus when on defense. Sir Cophagus to return the favor. Alpha immortal sysndrom.

    Attacks some air units. Similar to Tiny and warlocks.

    In raid gem cost: Devil's Pitchfork, massive damage increase. Revives minions.

SWAMPUS:
    Swampus can rot doors in 3 block range. Similar to burning.

    Swampus absorbs all room damage within 1 block, protecting minions. Or his reduced damage buff is pass to all minions within 2 blocks

    Cannons don't affect Swampus.

    Bomb explosions absorbed by Swampus if within 1 block when triggered, other minions untouched.

    Bile demons with Swampus extends splash damage forward one block with poison effect.

    In raid gem purchase: Greed, doubles or triples resources taken.

Deegg & Dugger:
    Can burrow to protect himself. Only takes 25% damage. Double tap to burrow/resume.

    During attack, any unassigned defending imps will join D&D adding attack and health. Alpha imp after all.

    On defense, imps bolstering guard post will be thrown at attacking immortals. Like boulders.

    Mistress will stay with D&D on attack. Maybe rides on his back. Or has him on a leash. Will leave if he burrows.

    For gold: builds catapult to thrown minions over walls. Takes 15seconds to build. Minion launched every half second.

    In raid gem purchase: Fragment, rips reinforced walls apart and throws forward a few squares. Damage a ratio of dig speed.
MORTIMER:
    Deflecting cannons against rooms.

    Stomp attack like those survivial raid giants. Frequency based on level... but random strength and distance up to 3 blocks.

    Will throw his own trolls and skeletons over walls into adjacent rooms.

    In raid gem purchase: Refelection, portion of room and trap damage returned.
GLARGGL:
    Attacks Tiny when on defense. Holds Tiny once in range.

    Inkball deactivated a percentage of traps along with room.

    Trolls see chicken rockets and attack. Helps clear defenses for air units.

    Able to catch cannon balls and throw at current target. Multiarmed multitasking.

    Immune to zappers. Freeze traps have more affect.

    In raid gem cost: Kraken, eats defending minions for health... Will eat attacking minions if below 10% health. Attacks rooms while holding defending minion for extra damage.

SIR COPGAGUS:
    Mistress on defense does 20x damage to Sir Cophagus... because he asked her to call him daddy.

    Ghosts stay near sir Cophagus. Defensive. Dead guarding the dead

    Affinity for torture chamber... he likes that stuff.

    Buffs Necromancers.

    In raid gems cost: Leach, steals mana from defending keeper while dark library isn't destroyed.
MAGMAW:
    Eats chicken bombs, absorbs the health, violent belch that causes damage.

    On defense equals flaming boulders.

    Melts freeze traps. 3 block range.

    Flaming skeletons. Attacks have some fire damage. Immune to fire traps and chicken bombs. And... they can dance.

    In raid gem cost: Endothermic. Heals while absorbing all heat in 1-2 blocks area. Freezes rooms/Defensive minions. Maybe on freeze trap frequency and immortal level.

TINY:
    Whelps 3x more effective with Tiny. Nuclear option. Tiny 5% faster per whelp. For when a revenge calls for that special response.

    Ability to target traps and minions/immortals.

    Can airdrop 5 minions.

    Phoenix revive?

    In raid gem purchase: Acrtic, freezes traps and rooms in splash range. Slows defenses. However, movement speed reduced.
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Re: Immortal Balance Changes

Postby Ululant » Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:31 pm

On the other hand with all the bug zappers and anti-air traps that come with the new levels of the workshop, a disable trap spell which can disable only 4 traps at cast, it's unthinkable, and this counts for every minion or immortal. We have more and more levels of walls and the bomb wall improves every time, always more traps to fill our dungeons with, but the disable trap remains the same as the very beginning, when there was 4 traps at all.
Same thing about cluck off, minions level 30 but the spell remains just the same? It doesn't make sense. To kill a maxed out vampire it takes two spells, considering it has to be down very slowly cause otherwise it's ineffective, one whole minute is lost to cluck off one single minion.
In conclusion Tiny needs for sure more health and more attack points and a new level of the disable trap could be very useful for everyone from air to ground.[/quote]

I do not disagree with cluck off but be careful with disable trap. At this point disable trap can take out 4 traps of any level when maxed. If additional taps are granted with higher levels of spell, i would prefer more taps are required to disable higher level traps. Even now it is possble to take out dcr 300+ dungeons with only tiny if you are willing to apend mana on 2-3 disable traps.
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Re: Immortal Balance Changes

Postby DK2Hell » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:36 am

if the immortals are to strong...you never win a defence! :roll:
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Re: Immortal Balance Changes

Postby newruler » Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:12 pm

Now the core is to change the ability to make new players have the power to spend magic with monsters to beat the top old players, increase the number of regular active players。 Or you're going to get tired of playing with a couple of old players.
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Re: Immortal Balance Changes

Postby Cesspool » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:36 pm

I think some of the points about spells are on target. Cluck off has become increasingly anemic and so should be leveled up regardless (but especially if) immortal levels are increased. Yes we have more mana now but we don’t have any more time to spend using it on a raid.

Agree that Tiny has lost relevance, you don’t see anyone using him these days, even with the increased number of DR that can be cast.

Morti is probably my go to immortal for a single raid (whilst I wait on Sir C to level up) but emphasis on single. He has a glass jaw and should have hp and damage increased.

G is nicely balanced (best of all immortals I think, in the sense that he is not op but not weak either) and plays as if he has greater hp since he inactivates rooms and attacks multiple traps as he moves forward. I would say just offer him the ability to increase Hp and damage and inactivation duration going forward. He does reasonable DH damage but not op.

Swampus is awesome when you are low to mid level keeper but is almost irrelevant at higher levels. He is stymied easily by high lvl doors and completely useless against the DH. Part of his irrelevance is explained by the lower relative proportion of total dungeon hp that storage rooms now have in comparison to high lvl rooms. At low to mid DH levels you could eek out a single star victory with swampus even if you couldn’t take out the DH. Now you have to take out all storage rooms and several major defenders rooms to get there. He needs a buff.

Horny seems to still be useful to his fans (I’m not one of them). Probably just needs some new levels.

D and D, has always been irrelevant at mid to higher levels and I don’t see that changing unless you allow his path to be better controlled by the attacking keeper. He’s a one hit wonder at high level equivalent to maybe one or two BW and then he’s dead. What’s the point when you have so much more mana these days? If you want to make him interesting, allow keepers to tap a square that you want him to move to and then have him stop and wait there for the next instruction set. That includes tapping a specific wall segment you want him to cut to so that his direction is highly controllable. By giving him the ability to back out of a fight that way and target additional rooms, you would dramatically increase his utility.

I don’t use Magmaw for anything but being a low level guardhouse placeholder (same as Tiny) so cant really comment on how to improve him. No one at high level uses him so I guess that either indicates he just doesn’t have enough power or that most realized they needed another low level watch dog and relegated him to that, aiming to get Sir C and level him up instead
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Re: Immortal Balance Changes

Postby Xenjahr » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:15 am

Hi Keepers and EA staff,

Here are my thoughts about the immortals

First of all I think it's very important to find an equilibrium beetween immos. Before the mummy every player had his favorite immo and there was a great variety of styles. That was good. The nerfing of the mummy is welcome. I think the devs did good about it.

Today some immos have become useless against veteran dungeons. Some minions are now better than immos (for example a bile demon against a ressource room is more efficient thant swampus). They need to be improved. But the risk is high to make the interest of the game decrease. An average raid must be complex and should need reflexion. So the improvements must be wise and well tested.

- to me the Mummy is OK like that. Mine is only level 6 and it already has become my second immortal. She's powerful and it,s range is a great asset.
- Magmaw : I don't play him so far. No relevant idea.
- Horny : My main immo. He's a great immortal. And it's available for newcomers. But against Dungeon hearts lvl 25+ he's becoming to fragile and his DPS has become too low. Maybe 5 new levels would help him remaining on top !
- Tiny : Well... I never liked her. Making her more powerful may kill the game again. So I won't be her lawyer today. Of course she's now useless against high level dcr but making her become powerful again will make everybody come back to the X4 Tiny rush. Boooooring...
- Deeg and Dugger : a good second immortal. He saves bombs. Making him more resistant would be a good idea to make a first immortal of him.
- Swampus : He's the one who most needs improvement. His DPS is too low. Empower his attack ! He should be able to take a dungeon heart level 30 down in one minute. And his ability to plunder must be as good as the bile demon's at high level.
- Glarggl : interesting immo. Many qualities. Maybe he should be given an area damage and be improved in dps and resistance
- Mortimer : He remains good even without new levels. Very powerful immo. And his weakness against traps and dungeon heart makes a good equilibrium. I'm not sure giving him more dps would be a good idea because he is already a beast. An area damage would make him too strong. Mabe you can give him more skills against defence minions by giving him a faster one shot attack.

About immortal AI :
- I don't know if it's possible but immortal AI should be strongly improved. Immortals do not defend themselves against Tiny attacking them. Defence immos are too passive.
- Please correct the Deeg and Dugger bug that makes the lightning spell destroy the defence D&D advantage.

New immortal ideas :
- Maybe you should think about a healer immortal (like a crasy fairy or a dark priest). It would be difficult to balance but this should make and interesting way to play
- A metamorph immo that randomly becomes a different immortal every 20 second :lol:

Thanks for reading !

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