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UPCOMING HOTFIX NOTES - Feb 14, 2014

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Re: UPCOMING HOTFIX NOTES - Feb 13, 2014

Postby Trixster » Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:31 pm

Turtling is my only way to save up money, and I usually use a few gems for that extra $10k or so, so that I can take a break, else I risk losing resources from attackers using 3x3 wallbombs (which I do not have) and 3 ghosts (which I do not have AA for).

I just upgraded to Dungeon Heart Level 5 (using gems because I can't collect enough resources), but when I raid, I have to hit Next about 50-60 times (I have counted) to find a dungeon without stone doors, graveyards and torture chambers (none of which I have access to). But then they have 42 gold and 187 stone, so I have to hit next again and again. (Seriously, what is up with the PvP matching algortithm?, it's costing me $3k to find a decent opponent. Why am I being offered a raid against a dungeon with 42 gold???).

So I am just digging and upgrading and turtling, when does the fun begin?

(Edit: The game was fun up until sometime after upgrades while a dungeon heart level 4, then the timers and costs just got out of control, the raids became unbalanced, and now I just dig).
Last edited by Trixster on Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: UPCOMING HOTFIX NOTES - Feb 13, 2014

Postby Daemonizer » Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:34 pm

We used to be able to "devise" -- that's EXACTLY what was going on when we used to be able to SAVE resources and PLAN our upgrades using the tools built into the game before Update 3 and subsequent hacks ruined it. We were not "turtling" - we were not simply hiding resources so other Keepers couldn't raid them - we were saving SOME resources so we could arrange upgrades in a specific order. Some resources were usually left available for raiders because of the way the extremely clever squirreling feature limited safe saving. The game functioned perfectly in this regard before it was kneecapped by people who didn't understand just how ingeniously the safe saving mechanism was woven into the wholistic vision the game provided before Update 3.
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Re: UPCOMING HOTFIX NOTES - Feb 13, 2014

Postby Codex604 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:07 pm

MWyatt_Mythic wrote:We've had a team of designers and data analysts pouring over mounds and mounds of data and results are all pointing toward a common trend.

  • Players are not gaining as much Resources from Raiding as we would like


Mr. Wyatt, could you share your data with us, or perhaps some sort of summary data? I think the player base would like to know how you came to the above conclusion and potentially what other conclusions could be made about the data.

Also, how much resources would you like us to gain from raiding? I know there are key variables as you mentioned:

MWyatt_Mythic wrote:Okay -- there is a lot of numbers being thrown around here and, while appreciative, are missing a number of very key, very critical variables:

  • Time
  • How many Gold Mines / Stone Quarries do I have claimed?
  • Cave-Ins (1-Star results in at least an eight hour Cave-In).
  • If affected by Cave-In, what's my behavior? Do I sacrifice it to attack? Do I simply turtle and count my riches?
  • # Stars in Victory/Defeat (if less than 3 Stars, how many (if any) Warehouses/Treasuries were destroyed as they hold, collectively 50% of the total Plunderable Resources)?
  • Do I "cherry-pick" my Opponents by using the "Next Raid" feature to find the ones that (may) reap the biggest reward?


Which are the dominant factors and what is the expected resource raiding rate as a function of those factors?

Thanks!
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Re: UPCOMING HOTFIX NOTES - Feb 13, 2014

Postby Daemonizer » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:47 pm

Yes, we'd all love to hear the reasoning. I'm particularly interested in why Mythic responded to our obvious need to gather resources by simply making it easier for raiders to get more resources per raid, which is a very-short-sighted idea and actually makes it HARDER for us to gather the amount of resources the game requires for progress.

How exactly am I supposed to gather 1.7 million stone to upgrade a Hatchery when I can no longer save even 600K to upgrade a door?
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Re: UPCOMING HOTFIX NOTES - Feb 13, 2014

Postby spcbrass » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:33 pm

I will throw some real numbers out there for you guys because I have collected enough data now to start looking at averages, though 5 hours of data certainly isn't enough to go making any assumptions it is enough to start potentially predicting a pattern.

During the course of my adventures I have collected data from 60 different raids collected at different hours of the day one hour at a time. Sure it is a much smaller data sample size than the folks at Mythic are collecting. I am only one man though and I don't own the servers so I can't run a program to pull off the necessary data in huge batches that I can run through another computer program to spit out results. Others keepers have collected data showing similar results to mine however, but I digress... Here are some numbers.

60 raids
95K stone plunder-able per raid
38% - This is my average margin of stone collected per raid so for every 100K I see I leave with 38K of it which is just a little over 1/3.

That means that I am plundering roughly 36K stone per raid. Decent numbers, but not necessarily great numbers.

Now lets say I play this game as it was designed to be played which as we all read in the article is to log in every couple of hours, upgrade your dungeon, launch a few raids and log out again. Say I play the game 5 times per day and launch 4 raids each time. That is 12 minutes of raiding time plus whatever summoning time there is in between, plus the time needed to upgrade whatever you can plus collect, maybe stop in the guild chat or whatever. Roughly 25 to 30 minutes of your time casually playing the game. Now to launch 4 raids in that time you would have to be a skillful and economical player. 4 raids in 30 minutes if you are indeed trying to win your raids is very hard to do when you factor in mana used, mana generation, minions used, minion summoning, etc... But once again I digress...

OK you log in 5 times per day, launch 4 raids in 30 minutes and log off. That is a total of 20 raids in 2.5 hours of game play. Casual enough right? Lets take those 20 raids and say we are able to manage 36K stone per raid. That is 720,000 stone collected per day. Now lets factor in 4 level 10 stone mines which under the new system will generate 5000 stone/hour. In a 24 hour period that is another 120,000 stone. That equals a total production of 840,000 stone per day. This would take you roughly 6 days to get to the 5 million needed for a level 10 dungeon heart. And that is assuming that you don't get raided at all.

Introducing more money into the economy helps, but the casual player is going to get flat out run over and will casually move over to the competitions game. Frankly I don't want to see that happen. D.K. is the only game that I play. I was drawn here by the name Dungeon Keeper because this is a game from my childhood years that I absolutely loved playing. When I look at the quality of this game compared to all of the other look a likes out there this game is so far ahead of the competition it's not even funny. Yes we are going through some growing pains and a big adjustment right now, but throwing more resources into the game is like trying to use a band aid to treat a broken leg.
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Re: UPCOMING HOTFIX NOTES - Feb 13, 2014

Postby Punkist » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:38 pm

MWyatt_Mythic wrote:Okay -- there is a lot of numbers being thrown around here and, while appreciative, are missing a number of very key, very critical variables:

  • Time
  • How many Gold Mines / Stone Quarries do I have claimed?
  • Cave-Ins (1-Star results in at least an eight hour Cave-In).
  • If affected by Cave-In, what's my behavior? Do I sacrifice it to attack? Do I simply turtle and count my riches?
  • # Stars in Victory/Defeat (if less than 3 Stars, how many (if any) Warehouses/Treasuries were destroyed as they hold, collectively 50% of the total Plunderable Resources)?
  • Do I "cherry-pick" my Opponents by using the "Next Raid" feature to find the ones that (may) reap the biggest reward?

Looking at the # of Stars in Victory/Defeat: 3-Stars is not the norm. This is a heavily volatile series of variables that rely on player skill, levels of Minions/Rooms/Traps and the "devise" pillar of the game.

Dungeon Keeper is a competitive game. It is about Raiding and plundering Resources from your Opponents. It is designed in a way where turtling is definitely a viable approach at the earlier levels but becomes significantly less lucrative as you progress.

The issue this change is intended to address is that there simply is not enough Resources that are being Plundered from Raiding -- especially at the higher levels. We're significantly increasing the amount of Resources entering into the economy while marginally increasing the Plunderable Resource Caps.

"Dig. Devise. Dominate." These are the pillars of the game and they are not changing. Your loss is someone else's profit - It's good to be bad, after all so go out and steal it from others.

Once again mwatt, you are simply barking up the wrong tree and u dun need mounts of info to tell u that

1. Time - play yourself for 1 to 3hr and u will know how much resources u can get. Question: how much can u safely retain considering logging off for half hr breaks? I've alrdy given those numbers in my previous posts, an ave 500k of stone/hr
2. Resource mines - they don't matter, if you get attacked, you lose the resource, their not even gained by the attacking party (wait u designed this didn't u?)
3. Cave-in- a good dungeon does not cave in for several raids which makes them vulnerable to resource theft, players attempt to get a cavein easily these days by exposing their heart
4. Behavior - this is dictated by our free time, simply, if you have free time whether 5 mins or 1hr, you attack regardless of cave in or not. Once again, the problem is how to effectively retain the resource
5. Warehouses - depends on how many warehouses you have, if their placed on 4 corners, 2 corners of the resource rooms are destroyed
6. Cherry picking - definitely yes, the limitation lies with army and mana regen time and not with resources plunder limit

Agree with you on the "competitive game", so show us how you can get 5 mill stone? By no lifing for 7hrs in game without taking breaks or using a stylus to tape to our phones. I'd like the senior designer to lead the way.
Last edited by Punkist on Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: UPCOMING HOTFIX NOTES - Feb 13, 2014

Postby grim-one » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:44 pm

If people attacking me and failing didn't cost me resources, I'd be happy. "Wins" against me are reasonably rare and usually well earned, but I get attacked every half hour or so and lose 10-50k stone per attack. It is debilitating. I work full time and can't stay "online" like some. I'm sorry but I'm definitely not paying real cash for daily cave ins either.

Daemonizer wrote:How exactly am I supposed to gather 1.7 million stone to upgrade a Hatchery when I can no longer save even 600K to upgrade a door?

If you're saving stone for a hatchery, you will be disappointed :lol:
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Re: UPCOMING HOTFIX NOTES - Feb 14, 2014

Postby MWyatt_Mythic » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:34 pm

Codex604 wrote:Mr. Wyatt, could you share your data with us, or perhaps some sort of summary data? I think the player base would like to know how you came to the above conclusion and potentially what other conclusions could be made about the data.


Essentially the economy models work off a series of known data points (Mine/Quarry generation rates, capacities, plunderable amounts, etc.... basically things that we have complete control over) and then worked into formulas based upon predictive trends of player behavior gathered during the soft launch of the game. Many of these trends remained unchanged despite the massive influx of player quantities and others shifted away from predictive trends.

An example of non-shifted trends are things like:

  • General retention over time
  • Number of Raids per day
  • Win/Loss Ratios

An example of these shifted trends are things like:

  • Gold/Stone Balances
    This is a complicated one to narrow down an indisputable reason as to why this has occurred so we work on assumptive behavior. Generally speaking, we've found players (in mid-late and later game) are sitting on less resources than expected. This is one of the primary causes of why people feel as though they don't get much from raiding and also why we're infusing significant resources into the game.

  • "Cherry-Picking" via "Next Raid"
    This feature was more-widely used during soft-launch but less so during worldwide. It's likely that a larger portion of the players are simply unaware with the feature due to its general presentation - something we will be addressing.


Codex604 wrote:Also, how much resources would you like us to gain from raiding? I know there are key variables as you mentioned:

MWyatt_Mythic wrote:Okay -- there is a lot of numbers being thrown around here and, while appreciative, are missing a number of very key, very critical variables:

  • Time
  • How many Gold Mines / Stone Quarries do I have claimed?
  • Cave-Ins (1-Star results in at least an eight hour Cave-In).
  • If affected by Cave-In, what's my behavior? Do I sacrifice it to attack? Do I simply turtle and count my riches?
  • # Stars in Victory/Defeat (if less than 3 Stars, how many (if any) Warehouses/Treasuries were destroyed as they hold, collectively 50% of the total Plunderable Resources)?
  • Do I "cherry-pick" my Opponents by using the "Next Raid" feature to find the ones that (may) reap the biggest reward?


Which are the dominant factors and what is the expected resource raiding rate as a function of those factors?

Thanks!


It's difficult to say which is the most dominant one from the list as they're all converging to create the outcome. Simply not having enough Gold/Stone inflow/outflow at the mid-late/late game is the crux of the issue. Beyond that the outcome relies heavily on player behavior that we are able to speculate based upon the gathered data but the comparisons between now and during soft launch are not lining up as we anticipated. So we are changing course to adjust to the updated behavior trends.

Assuming the following criteria:

  • Dungeon Heart Level 7
  • Stone Quarries x3 at Level 9
  • Warehouses x3 at Level 8

With the above setup then the following is true (just going to look at Stone for this):

  • Capacity Increase from Stone Quarries: 225,000 (3 x 75,000)
  • Capacity increase from Warehouses: 900,000 (3 x 300,000)
  • Capacity increase from initial Dungeon Heart build: 1,500
  • Total Capacity: 1,126,500
  • NEW - Max Plunderable Resources Cap: 200,000
  • NEW - Stone Generation per Stone Quarry: 4,400 per Hour or 105,600 per Day
  • NEW - Total Stone Generation: 316,800 per Day

Lets assume that I'm currently sitting on 500,000 Stone in my coffers. The 30% value of that is 150,000 which is less than the cap so that is the value that will be used.

Scenario A: if I get attacked by another Keeper and they deal 50% damage to me (but do not destroy my Warehouses) then the amount they will take is:

  • 37,500 (new total: 462,500)

Scenario B: If that same attack occurs, dealing 50% damage to me and my Warehouses were destroyed in the process then the amount they will take is:

  • 112,500 (new total: 387,500). Ouch. Protect your Warehouses.

I now have an eight hour Cave-In from this attack and I decide to sit on that for its full duration while performing other tasks. Over that time I earn:

  • Scenario A: 105,000 (new total: 567,500)
  • Scenario B: 105,000 (new total: 492,500)

My Cave-In is about to expire and I have some time to engage in a battle since I may get attacked anyway. Using the same 50% damage done and the same Warehouse scenarios, I'm now sitting at the following:

  • Scenario A: 37,500 (new total: 605,000)
  • Scenario B: 112,500 (new total: 605,000)

Obviously you simply broke even as if you were never attacked, did no attacking and just collected from you Stone Quarry. This is where the PVP aspect comes into play with skill, carefully selecting opponents and general army composition against the opponent.

Starting over at the 500,000 Stone value, attacking someone on the hour every hour for 24 hours, dealing 50% damage and taking out their Warehouses -- and I'm able to actually only take 50% damage and protect my Warehouses then, by the end of that 24 hour period... I'm sitting real nice at:

  • 3,121,240 Stone earned that day

TL;DR The short summary of this change is that the vast majority of players should find resources far more attainable in the game by the significant inflow we're introducing via generation. It's your job to go out and steal it from others. Oh. And guard your stuff.
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Re: UPCOMING HOTFIX NOTES - Feb 13, 2014

Postby MWyatt_Mythic » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:37 pm

grim-one wrote:If people attacking me and failing didn't cost me resources, I'd be happy. "Wins" against me are reasonably rare and usually well earned, but I get attacked every half hour or so and lose 10-50k stone per attack. It is debilitating. I work full time and can't stay "online" like some. I'm sorry but I'm definitely not paying real cash for daily cave ins either.


This is something we can revisit and adjust accordingly. Getting "nickle and dimed" was problematic during soft launch which made us enable Cave-Ins at 1-Star rather than 2+
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Re: UPCOMING HOTFIX NOTES - Feb 13, 2014

Postby Tovenar » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:48 pm

DO you guys...just...not know that if we are attacked the resources in the mines is lost the oblivion? It's like you guys just ignore anything anyone says on the topic or deflect it with something else.

TL;DR Resource production is gimped because you are stealing all the gold and stone and hiding it somewhere for untold reasons. Just give us back safe mines.
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